Historical Evidence for the Death and Resurrection of Jesus
Rev. Randy K. posted a comment · Jun 25, 2016
How about that, an atheist is addicted to a Christian web site! Sorry, I can't comment right now Fred. I've gotta run, I've got an appointment to keep. But you just keep checking back as often as you like Fred.
"I've never debated an atheist as ignorant as you Fred," You actually believe that science says humans evolved from monkeys! Talk ignorant!!! Even small children know more than you do about science, that is unless they are being homeschooled by Christian parents. That is as ignorant as a person can be. You know absolutely NOTHING about science and that is definition of ignorance - not knowing anything at all about how things actually work in the universe. Clueless about evolution but some he knows it ain't so. Hahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahah
Wow you are just like Rush Limbaugh the self-loathing (loathing means hating, for you home schooled people) sociopath you've made an idol of. Limbaugh also accuses other people of being just like him and acting just like him the way you just did regarding me. Limbaugh ridicules drug addicts even though he's one. He ridiculed draft dodgers even though he's a draft dodger. He hates abortion but he's paid for several of them. He lies constantly like you and then accuses other people of lying just like you. All you Bible thumpers are exactly alike. You've been taught that you're worthless fallen people and by believing that you have become that. See ya. Would NEVER want to join a self-hating death cult like yours.
I'm not wasting 5 seconds reading all your ranting and raging and lies Fred. It's nothing new anyway, just the same old inane garbage. I've never debated an atheist as ignorant as you Fred, and yet you claim to be smarter than all the other atheists! ROFLOL! Go ahead and keep ranting and raging and lying and wasting what few declining years of your life you have left commenting on here. That alone proves you are devoid of any common sense. Hopefully you wake up on the green side of the grass tomorrow so you get one more day to get it right.
"Your previous comment has nothing to do with my comment whatsoever Fred." You are sorry you mentioned John Glenn because I showed you that had Glenn's family been killed by Hurricane Mitch he would not have held such an idyllic view of God. You didn't see THAT coming did you? ROFL!!!! You were completely humiliated by my post and you KNOW it. "You thought you were SO smart to quote some godless cosmonaut's observation that he didn't see God anywhere in space as proof that there is no God, didn't you Fred?" Are you really that dense? Out motto was adopted to scare the Russians during the Cold War. That is the only reason. Gagarin wasn't trying to prove anything about God. Yikes! The cosmonaut was mocking the superstitious and idiotic American politicians who thought they could frighten the Russians during the cold war by having a motto that implied that the Americans had God on their side. Are you so dense and literal minded that you cannot figure out that the Russians were laughing at us trying to frighten them with what to the Russians is imaginary. It's like trying to frighten a person who doesn't believe in ghosts with ghosts. It's stupid. Our religious politicians are STUPID for even thinking that would work. You religious people are an embarrassment to every free thinking person in America. Go away please. "And you have the audacity to claim I know NOTHING about the Bible!" You didn't know that The Book of Daniel is a Second Century forgery done by two different authors in two different languages. Once you've let other people frighten into thinking that you need to believe every word in this stupid holy book or you will suffer eternal damnation you are blinded by fear. Now you will twist your brain into a useless pretzel trying to believe that a 600 year old goat herder built a ship the size of the Titanic out of nothing but wood and that donkeys and snakes talked, that a man could stop the sun from going across the sky (the Bible is a flat earth book) and the rest of the nonsensical fairy tales in the Bible because you are afraid not to. You would NEVER believe these stories if you were not being pressured to do so. Think about THAT. There's no way you can even learn the first thing about the Bible operating under that kind of fear. So it is only we skeptics who can interpret the Bible because we are not afraid we have to believe it like you Christians are. I have explained this before and you have no answer for it so you ignored it. We have no problem with the fact that all of science completely contradicts the teachings of your supposedly infallible holy book. have no problem accepting that entire New Testament is a bunch of forgeries, plagiarisms, fales all done by the early Church itself because those are the facts. You have to deny those facts. I don't have to pretend I know more than scientists who have been trained in their fields. You arrogantly claim to know that the best established and longest standing scientific explanation we've ever had isn't valid. I cannot even imagine that kind of vanity and arrogance especially when you've never read a single word on the subject and are afraid to ever even try. Again you just repeat the same arguments over and over and over and over and over and completely ignore the fact that I have shot them down repeatedly. The proof is right here in the fact that you have ignored every question put to you. You've failed to even acknowledge the objections to your claims let alone try to refute them. If this debate were being moderated the moderator would have stopped it along time ago and forced you to answer my questions or forfeit the debate. You have forfeited. You can live the rest of your life knowing you had no answers at all for the atheist. You got the intellectual smackdown of your life and you KNOW it. You cannot even abide by the rules of fair play so don't waste anymore of my time. Christians have the most infantile morals of any people. Just like their God. Every one reading this sees you got hammered in a debate with an atheist. Hopefully that's enough for them to see the Emperor has no clothes and they won't got to church anymore. "God has given you a free will just like He did to Adam and Eve." What is your next thought going to be? You don't know and you don't know why you are having this thought either. A simple proof humans DO NOT have free will. This has been demonstrated using experiments and demonstrations by neuro scientists and you can look it up. One more scientific discovery that refutes the teachings in your supposedly infallible holy book. And you have to deny it like you must deny all science. Also scientists have disproved the claim that we all came from just two people. That is impossible for several reasons and you can look that up but you won't because really knowledge frightens you. It does. No way you can deny that now. I
Your previous comment has nothing to do with my comment whatsoever Fred. You thought you were SO smart to quote some godless cosmonaut's observation that he didn't see God anywhere in space as proof that there is no God, didn't you Fred? However, you didn't expect that I would then quote numerous American astronauts' testimony of experiencing God in outer space. You didn't see THAT coming did you? You quote 1 person against God, and I quote 4 in favor of God, 4 who were MUCH, MUCH further out in space than your lowly Russian infidel. So, since you can't deal with the truth or defeat, you turn the whole conversation 180 degrees. You've done that time and time again. Your previous comment also proves you actually know very little about the Bible--at least not nearly as much as you think you do. And you have the audacity to claim I know NOTHING about the Bible! It was a perfect world--until Adam and Even sinned and gave the authority over the earth that God had given to them to satan. It's no wonder there has been so much chaos on earth ever since. God isn't up in heaven controlling everything down here as though we were puppets. The Bible doesn't support that idea. You should be happy about that too. God has given you a free will just like He did to Adam and Eve. God's given you the free will to even deny He exists Fred! It is always humorous how people who claim they don't believe in God turn around and blame God and curse God when things go wrong.
"Astronaut John Glenn said, “To look out at this kind of creation and not believe in God is to me impossible. It just strengthens my faith. I wish there were words to describe what it's like.” I vividly recall that, at the every moment Glenn uttered his oft-repeated words about a Creator, the Shuttle was flying over Central America, where Hurricane Mitch had just destroyed the infrastructures of five entire nations. Tens of thousands of people had just been killed and hundreds of thousands left homeless, Government officials calculated that it would take 30 years to rebuild. When creationists try to foist the quote from Glenn they conveniently never mention anything about the carnage and catastrophic damage wrought by the storm, which was raging only 200 mile beneath Glenn and the shuttle. As usual Glenn's "vision of God" was based on selective observation. If Glenn's entire family had just been wiped out by the storm, I highly doubt that he would have voiced such an idyllic view of God and Nature. So whenever Christians point out to me that many intelligent people believe in a Creator I agree. But I always point out the truth about this which is that the observations made by these people are selectively employed. Christians count the hits and ignore all the misses. Nature mindlessly slaughters scores of perfectly innocent men, women and children through natural disasters like hurricanes, tornadoes, earthquake, floods drought, lightning, fires, starvation and epidemic disease. Our planet was once a spinning ball of fire and it has and will again become what is known as snowball Earth. This is proof that this planet was not created by any being. When we get hit by another comet or asteroid and we will because we live in a very dangerous shooting gallery I wonder what you view of nature and God will be then.
The fact that you quote what some godless Russian cosmonaut had to say about God and ignore what famous American astronauts have said is just a PRIME example of how blatantly biased you are in your research Fred. Yuri Gagarin’s problem was the same as yours—he didn’t WANT to believe there was a God. Yuri Gagarin’s problem was that he didn’t go far enough into outer space. His travel didn’t BEGIN to penetrate the vast vistas of the cosmos. Let’s look at what some famous American astronauts had to say about their experience in space. Frank Borman was commander of the first space crew to travel beyond the Earth's orbit. Looking down on the earth from 250,000 miles away, Borman radioed back a message, quoting Genesis One: "In the beginning, God created the heavens and the earth." As he later explained, "I had an enormous feeling that there had to be a power greater than any of us—that there was a God, that there was indeed a beginning." The late James Irwin, who walked on the moon in 1971, later became an evangelical minister. He often described the lunar mission as a revelation. In his words, "I felt the power of God as I'd never felt it before." Charles Duke, who followed Irwin to the moon, later became active in missionary work. As he explained, "I make speeches about walking ON the moon and walking WITH the Son of God." Guy Gardner is a veteran astronaut who speaks in churches on the reality of God. Astronaut John Glenn said, “To look out at this kind of creation and not believe in God is to me impossible. It just strengthens my faith. I wish there were words to describe what it's like.” It must really gall you that this coming July 30th will mark the 60th Anniversary of President Eisenhower’s signing of the bill making “In God We Trust” the official motto of the United States. You should have moved to some wonderful godless country like Russia, China, or Cuba many years ago Fred. You would have been so much more happy. Yep, that’s why all the people in third world countries try so hard to get to those countries instead of the United States.
I remember the first man in space, a Russian cosmonaut named Yuri Gagarin. Guess what the first words uttered in outer space by a member of our species were. "I don't see any God up here." He was mocking the stupid Americans who thought they could frighten the atheist Russians by printing "In God we Trust" on our money and making it our national motto just a few years earlier. Really how pathetic the Christian superstition really is. We don't know exactly when or where Christians began calling themselves Christians. But we know when and where it didn't happen. That's how the scientific method works. You don't prove stuff, you disprove stuff because that's so much easier to do. And whatever you're left with, the most plausible explanation supported by the most evidence is what we go with. However in science, and this is very important, no finding is ever the final word and ALL findings are subject to future revision and even outright rebuttal. Scientists are not married to any theory or explanation and the reason we know they eventually get it right is because scientists absolutely LOVE proving each other wrong. That's how they get famous and sometimes rich and win Nobel Prizes. Your religion is static and so it has withered and died. It can't change, it can't learn and when we get real factual evidence that runs contrary to the Bible you Christians must deny it at all costs. Your religion is bleeding thousands of people out the doors every week because of this. I suggest you join them. They must know something you haven't figured out yet.
I'll bet you believe the moon landing was fake too don't you Fred. Do you belong to that organization that claims it was nothing but an elaborate hoax pulled off by Hollywood?
I'll bet you believe the moon land was fake too don't you Fred. Do you belong to that organization that claims it was nothing but an elaborate hoax pulled off by Hollywood?
"A Bible College is a Christian college Fred. Actually, all 3 schools I named are Universities. And Cedarville does NOT teach evolution as a fact, that is a fact." Really who cares? NO Bible colleges teach evolution. So it's intellectually dishonest to try to foist those on me and you KNOW it. You're acting like a little girl about this. "You claim to be smarter than all the atheists and Orthodox Jews who believe Josephus and Tacitus were telling the truth when they mentioned Jesus in their writings." Well that can work both ways. I studied everything Josephus wrote in college. Old Joe claimed he saw a ten-foot tall Jewish giant casting out demons. Do you believe that? I don't. Josephus claimed Hercules was a real person. Do you believe that? I don't. You claim to be smarter than many conservative scholars who have noticed that the entries in Josephus were not there when Origin read it or he would surely have mentioned that. So they have concluded that the entries in Josephus were put there by Eusebius because Eusebius is the first person to produce a copy of Josephus with these "golden paragraphs" in it. Scholars have long smelled a rat on that one because Eusebius is an admitted forger and faker and that liar wrote the history of the early Church and it's complete hogwash. You can look it up. Tacitus has also been identified as a forgery and it did not turn up until the 15th Century and once again only one copy in the hands of the Church. Imagine the coincidence! "Obviously Christianity began at some point in time somewhere by some person or persons." As late as the Fifth Century Pope Leo issued an edict ordering the Christians to stop worshiping the sun. Archaeological data have confirmed that the earliest known Christians were in small sects in and around Rome and on into Asia. When the early churchmen went looking for the Jerusalem Church described in the Bible, they were very disappointed because they could not find it and none of the residents had ever heard of it. They could not find any Christians in Palestine either because that is not where Christianity began. There's an Episcopal minister who wrote about this but this information is in the libraries of most colleges and universities in the West. You can find it for yourself. Everything comes from something that preceded it. All the pictures of Jesus from antiquity picture him with a solar disc behind his head just as all the ancient solar deities or sun gods were pictured. So whether Jesus existed or not is beside the point I am making here. The early Christians came from sun worshiping cults. No one had magical conversions. The Acts of the Apostles is a fantasy novel and has nothing to do with the real history of the early church. This is a fun time to be studying this stuff because for the first time scholars are applying the scientific method to the study of the Bible. So we're learning new stuff about how Christianity really did begin little by little every day now. I suggest you avail yourself to this information. Also we've done the same with the Koran in the West and even some Muslims helping out. Muhammad and his magical winged horse are complete fictions as well. So don't feel bad about Jesus, the Muslims prophet didn't exist either. Check it out. I had an Arabic professor and using ANET and other sources the students learned that Islam actually evolved from ancient Arabic moon worshiping cults. Look at the top of their Mosques. Dead giveaway huh? Now squint into the sun. See the cross? Again, dead giveaway. So anyway the Jews and Arabs have hated each other for so long now they have forgotten what the original disagreement was about. Was the sun the god or was the moon the god. It's a simple as that. Really.
A Bible College is a Christian college Fred. Actually, all 3 schools I named are Universities. And Cedarville does NOT teach evolution as a fact, that is a fact. You claim to be smarter than all the atheists and Orthodox Jews who believe Josephus and Tacitus were telling the truth when they mentioned Jesus in their writings. You claim Jesus never existed, and therefore His apostles never existed—including the apostle Paul. Fine. Obviously Christianity began at some point in time somewhere by some person or persons. You also claim you don’t believe anything unless it is provable. So Fred, when and where did Christianity begin, and who was the person or persons that started it? I’m sure you can prove it, otherwise you wouldn’t believe it.
"...and now you claim Christian colleges that don't offer a biology don't count." The first class anyone takes on evolution is Evolutionary Biology 101. Face palm
Now you are changing your story because I have proven you wrong and now you claim Christian colleges that don't offer a biology don't count. Right. " Bible colleges. Bible colleges are the only Christian schools you could find that don't teach evolution. It just does not get any more HILARIOUS than that. NO BIBLE COLLEGES teach science. So they never had a choice on whether to teach evolution or not. Do you see how ridiculous you are being here? Nit Picking at its most absurd. So let's put it this way. Every Christian college and university in the world that teaches life sciences, including one you said did not, Cedarville, teaches evolution. What do one or two Bible schools matter when the rest of the schools, 100 percent of all, Christian colleges and universities that teach life sciences do teach evolution exactly as it is taught in secular schools? No exceptions. Even Wheaton college, much to the dismay of some of its donors. And that fact just infuriates you I can tell. So let's see if you can find a Christian college or university that is NOT a Bible college (your desperation is boiling over) that does not teach evolution. Oh that's right you could not find any of those. Bible colleges. You actually do not even know what evolution is. That kind of Bronze Age ignorance has no place in our nation or in this century. Or even in the last century. I cannot believe how uneducated you are. Never even heard that Daniel is a Second Century forgery written by two different authors in two different languages and you claim to be a minister. I cannot imagine waking up and not knowing anything about the real world at all and you live your entire life like that. Bible colleges don't teach evolution. Yeah no kidding. Unbelievable.
You claimed that EVERY Christian college teaches evolution as a fact. THAT is what you said. Go back and read what you said. Either your memory is failing you or you're just a flat out liar. I'll opt for the latter. Now you are changing your story because I have proven you wrong and now you claim Christian colleges that don't offer a biology don't count. Right. That is not what you claimed originally. You originally said EVERY Christian college teaches evolution as a fact. When I prove you wrong, then you change your story. How convenient.
You claimed that EVERY Christian college teaches evolution as a fact. THAT is what you said. Go back and read what you said. Either your memory is failing your or you just a flat out liar. Now you are changing your story because I have proven you wrong and now you claim Christian colleges that don't offer a biology don't count. Right. That is not what you claimed originally. You originally said EVERY Christian college teaches evolution as a fact. When I prove you wrong, then you change your story. How convenient.
"And just like your idiotic claim that EVERY Christian college teaches evolution as a fact. ROFLOL ! I made the phone calls to find out--you didn't." Yes and you dishonesty tried to foist two Bible colleges on me. They do not count as legitimate colleges because they do not teach life sciences anyway. So much like a tech school, or a truck driving school or a police academy the subject of evolution would not be taught anyway. These types of academies just like Bible colleges specialize and do not even teach science. You have to name a college or university that teaches the subject of biology because that is what evolution is. It isn't a bunch of made up stuff like your religion. And Cedarville, much to your dismay teaches evolution. Check it out, anybody can. So YOU DID NOT name even one Christian college or university that teaches life sciences and does not teach evolution. Now I already pointed this out twice before so your claim above is now a BOLD FACED LIE and this time I really gotcha Fake Rev Randy. Oh I know you won't respond because you are extremely dishonest and you just proved it. Everybody look how Fake Rev Randy cannot produce the name of even one Christian college or university that teaches life sciences and does not teach evolution. Check him out. He dishonestly tried to foist Bible colleges on me as legitimate colleges that teach science. It doesn't get anymore sneaky, it doesn't get anymore low, more immoral than that. Just another Liar for Jesus, who as anyone can see from my posts never even existed. Why would I want to join up with a cult that has people like you in it? My authority is TRUTH. Your truth is authority. Sorry you lose. Liar.
Yawn. You haven't proven diddly squat Fred. And you certainly haven't convinced anyone of anything. No intelligent person reading your comments believes any of it now. Too much of it is far off the wall. Like your moronic claim that Jesus never even existed. ROFLOL!!! Even Orthodox Jews don't believe that idiocy. Even other ATHEISTS disagree with you on that! How bad is that? And just like your idiotic claim that EVERY Christian college teaches evolution as a fact. ROFLOL ! I made the phone calls to find out--you didn't. I proved that an outright lie, but you still claim you're right. DUH!!! The more you comment, the less believable you are. After the first sentence or two and I don't even bother to read the rest of your comments anymore. And when you make two separate comments back to back, I don't even bother to read the other one at all. It's just the same old worn out dribble. Your comments are full of twisted truths and outright lies. So just go on ranting and raging and wasting your life away.
"Exactly what do you hope to accomplish by all your ranting and raging on here, Fred?" Proving to everyone that Christians really don't have even the tiniest shred of evidence that Jesus Christ ever existed. None was presented in the video and none on this thread. When debating Christians many skeptics make the mistake of granting the Christians the false premise that Jesus was real. Then they try to pin you down saying that you can either reject or accept Jesus. This is a classical logical fallacy known as the False Dichotomy. The Christian only offers two possibilities when there are others, the most logical being that Jesus never existed at all. When you demand evidence from the apologist he's thrown off his game and his entire theology comes crashing down. First the apologist has no contemporary evidence from outside the Bible that Jesus or any of the apostles including Paul did ever exist. So if the skeptic does not believe Jesus was real then he cannot make a choice on whether or not to accept Jesus. Christian theology, all of it comes crashing down on itself at that point. The Christian realizes none of it makes a bit of sense and they go into full out panic mode which I've had fake Rev Randy in for a few days now. Don't kid yourself. Fake rev is as frustrated, humiliated and infuriated as he has ever been. and scared stiff that I am right. He KNOWS I am. He let that out of the bag early on when he said I was not like the other atheists. I know. I cut his argument off at the knees before he could even make it. Notice Randy did not respond to any of my objections to his claims. Randy avoided every question I asked him, every one. Contrasting that I responded to everything he asked and shot down every claim he made several times. This is because Christians ignore the objections to their claims and repeat the same claims over and over and over and over as if no objections were ever raised. fake rev is in full retreat right now, licking his wounds. What happened did Jesus appear again Randy and say, "Stay away from that science or ELSE!" Jesus hates science don't he? ROFL. I have never met a more ill-equipped defender of the faith. He doesn't even know the arguments, nothing. At least the other creationist know a little about their Bible. randy knows nothing about the Bible or science. Pathetic.
Two of those Christian colleges are Bible colleges that teach no science at all. Cedarville teaches evolution. So why did you dishonestly try to foist Bible colleges on me as legitimate colleges? Why fake Rev Randy? That is the same as lying Fake Rev Randy. And so you still never found even one Christian college anywhere that teaches science and does not teach evolution. Not one anywhere. So how humiliating is it to know that the entire Christian academic community actually agrees with me regarding science? Not only that, these schools go to great lengths to distance themselves from creationism. William Dembski was fired by Baylor for intellectual dishonesty which is nice way of saying Dembski is a liar. LeHigh has denounced the woo woo promoted by Michael Behe. That must just infuriate you. You've never even set foot on a Christian college campus but you pretend to know what is taught in their biology classes even though you don't even know what biology is. It's hard to believe the kind of ignorance it takes to cling to your Bronze Age superstitions. Do you not understand that because you don't know anything about the real world you are subject to all kinds of superstitions? THIS is why you believe. You don't know any better.
Exactly what do you hope to accomplish by all your ranting and raging on here, Fred?
"I choose to believe that the Creator of the universe was telling the truth when He said that I am created in His image." No you choose to believe the people who convinced you that the Bible must be believed or you will burn in hell for all eternity. How come you can't see it's other people you have believed all along? "However, if you want to believe that you evolved from a monkey Fred, you will certainly not get an argument from me." You ignored what I asked you do. I asked you to go to science website, find out what evolutionary theory says the relationship between monkeys and humans is. I do not believe I came from a monkey. If you actually think that is what scientists believe then you're an idiot. That isn't what evolution states. So you proved you are so afraid you won't even read the scientific literature on evolution. You're afraid because you may experience some serious doubt about your evil, mind-controlling religion. Look how it is controlling you with fear right now. You can't even risk reading about evolution you are so intent on not letting any doubt creep into your tiny, poorly educated mind. "Proverbs says that laughter is a good medicine." Yep and NOTHING is funnier than creationism." Atheists watch Sid Roth for the comedic value. I congratulate you on doing a great job of proving why God calls those fools" Nope those are just people your religious leaders have told you God calls fools. There is no God. Jesus Christ never existed. The Church forged and faked the entire New Testament over a period of a few centuries. Now if your next post does not explain what science says the relationship between humans and monkeys is, that will prove that your mind is slammed shut and will never, ever allow any kind of new information in again. Information. You know the stuff that proves your religion of ignorance and stupidity is absolutely evil and absolutely false. So prove you are not afraid to read a little scientific literature. Because if you're that scared then we all know your personal experience is a bunch of made-up nonsense. If you really KNOW God exists then you have nothing to fear from science. But you don't and so I win. You can no longer believe in God. Your deconversion has already started. You lied about your experience of God and your cowardice has just proved it. See ya Fake Rev Randy. Would NEVER wanna be ya. Fake all the way you are. A total and complete fraud. I win another trophy. One more x-Christian to my credit. POOF. Deconversions can be long and painful. You'll get over it and be better for it. I'm glad I proved to you that you were kidding yourself about meeting God. You can thank me later.
I choose to believe that the Creator of the universe was telling the truth when He said that I am created in His image. However, if you want to believe that you evolved from a monkey Fred, you will certainly not get an argument from me. You just keep ranting and raving about things you continually make up, are clueless about, and falsely accuse me of, if that's what makes you happy. I feel sorry for you. You obviously don't have a life. And that is a real pity considering you believe this life is all that there is. I do congratulate you on doing a great job of proving why God calls those fools who don't believe in Him. You're just giving everyone reading your comments a good laugh. That's probably the reason Dr. Brown had you on his radio program. Proverbs says that laughter is a good medicine. It took science 4,000 years to discover that medically, that is actually true.
"There are plenty of people who were atheists that set out to prove that God, Jesus, and the Bible were all shams, but after examining all the evidence, they ended up becoming Christians themselves." 53,000 atheists a week like the number of Christians leaving Christianity? If people converting to Christianity is evidence of truth then people leave the religion is just as good evidence of falsehood. And since the numbers leaving Christianity are about 53,000 to 1 that means the evidence that Christianity is false is 53,000 times better than your evidence that it is true. You really should try to think through the ridiculous claims you make because everyone can see you're NOT A THINKER. 53000- 1. I think I won that one Fake Rev. "The only reason that you don't believe there is a God Fred, is simply because you don't WANT to believe that there is a God." I don't believe because there is no evidence for any God. All you have is arguments and we have facts, the enemy of faith. "Nevertheless, if you want to be an atheist, that's your choice." Not a choice. I cannot choose to believe the retarded fairy tales in the Bible. If you want to believe that a 600 year old man built a ship the size of the Titanic out of wood go ahead and try. Not working to well for you is it? Billions of species crammed into a wooden ark. "You can't even convince orthodox Jews that Jesus never existed!" In no more than ten years Jesus Christ will have joined Zeus and the other gods in his rightful place in mythology. "I choose to believe that the Creator of the universe was telling the truth when He said that I am created in His image." Well you act just like the God you believe in because you have the mind, manners and morals of a small, spoiled child just like your God, the genocidal maniac and ethnic cleanser. And you actually believe this vast universe was created for you particular species when there must be billions of other planets with life on them. Trillions. Life that may not even be carbon based but perhaps silicon based. "However, if you want to believe that you evolved from a monkey Fred, you will certainly not get an argument from me." The ignorance of creationists is astounding. You actually think that is what evolution states don't you? I bet you cannot tell me what the relationship between monkeys and humans is according to evolution. And to prove what a complete coward you really are Fake Rev you could easily go to a science website and see what the theory states. But you won't because you are afraid, scared out of your mind, you might learn something and knowledge always kills faith. Always has, always will. So again the evidence of 53,000 new x-Christians every week is 53,000 times better than the few atheists that may have converted to Christianity to keep peace with their wives and in-laws. No real man would ever convert for any other reason and I discussed that earlier as well. "You aren't accomplishing anything here" Everybody who reads this will see what a complete fool you are. You did that to yourself. 53000 to 1. ROFL. You lose AGAIN. Now what does evolution say the relationship between monkeys and humans is. chicken. Buk buk buk buk. What a COWARD.
You're the typical atheist Fred. The issue of not believing there is a God has nothing at all to do with evidence—nothing. That's the only thing you've proven. There is plenty of evidence available for anyone who sincerely wants to know the truth. God has not left Himself without a witness. There are plenty of people who were atheists that set out to prove that God, Jesus, and the Bible were all shams, but after examining all the evidence, they ended up becoming Christians themselves. You are so much in denial that you refuse to believe those people's own testimonies. And you refuse to even believe other atheists! How bad is that?! Apparently, everyone in the world is a liar—except you. The only reason that you don't believe there is a God Fred, is simply because you don't WANT to believe that there is a God. You've made that quite clear. Therefore, I have no illusions of changing your mind. And you certainly aren't going to change Dr. Brown's mind or my mind either—or any other Christian's mind on here. So what's your point? This is America, the land of the free. Everyone is free to believe what they want. That is why this nation was founded—freedom OF religion, not freedom FROM religion. Nevertheless, if you want to be an atheist, that's your choice. Go for it. So why don't you take all your atheist nonsense to an atheist web site? You aren't accomplishing anything here. You can't even convince orthodox Jews that Jesus never existed! I choose to believe that the Creator of the universe was telling the truth when He said that I am created in His image. However, if you want to believe that you evolved from a monkey Fred, you will certainly not get an argument from me.
"He lived and was crucified and that His followers believed that He rose from the dead." What followers? Where in the historical record are any followers of Jesus named. That would be interesting since the name Jesus Christ does not appear in the historical record anywhere, from any place or from any one. Jesus' followers are as legendary and fictional as Jesus Christ. They are only mentioned in the same comic book as jesus is only mentioned in and nowhere else. This is how we know for sure that no such person as Jesus Christ ever existed.
"Exactly. Anyone can go on the internet and say anything Fred." And that is exactly what YOU ARE DOING! ROFL! Wow your lack of self-awareness is astounding or it would be if you were not a Bible believer! You're on the Internet like Samantha telling me I need to believe your claim made on the Internet and I can't believe Samantha's. You don't have any more evidence than Samantha does. Now I will give you some time to pull your foot out of your mouth. And you wonder why atheists mock you people.
Exactly. Anyone can go on the internet and say anything Fred. Big deal! Samantha who? What's her last name? When did this happen? Where does she live? Did you ever meet her? You've talked to Dr. Brown and even been on his radio program. You have no problem believing some supposed story by some Samantha from God only knows where, but you won't believe someone's story like Dr. Brown's. How incredulous! If you're trying to be a comedian, don't quit your day job Fred.
Of course anyone can go on the Internet as see personal testimonies of just how converting to various religions immediately changed people's lives. Here's Samantha's story: The first time I prayed I stayed with my head to the ground for about an hour crying. It felt like Allah entered my heart and took away every single pain I had ever had and I felt a huge weight lifted off my chest. Allah became the best friend that I always longed for. He understood my struggle and he listened. He showed me signs and at the age of 20, he made his appearance in my life for the first time ever. I can finally say I now have faith and it is the best thing that could have ever happened to me and it is something I am so thankful for. I am just one of the girls that Allah (swt) decided to opens eyes and cause he did that till the day I die, not a moment will go by that I won't take Allah into considerations for everything I do going forward. Okay Randy are you going to accept this evidence as proof Islam is true? Why not? Yet you expect other people to accept your personal experience for which there is just as much evidence as Samantha's. Again we go over and over and over and over this. You cannot expect anyone to accept your personal testimony s evidence when you refuse to accept personal testimonies from adherents of other religions. That evidence isn't any good coming from other people so it isn't any good coming from you either. Got it? How come you cannot understand that? How narrow minded are you? If Samantha is deluding herself then we have every reason to think you are deluding yourself as well. Because you are. Okay prove the Book of Daniel is not a Second Century forgery done bu two different authors in two different languages. And again two of the three colleges you named DO NOT TEACH SCIENCE because they are Bible colleges. And Cedarville teaches evolution. I Emailed them because their website does not say their science courses are accredited and it would if they were. BIBLE COLLEGES don't count because they don't teach science. So you have not named one single Christian college that teaches life sciences that does not teach evolution. Not one and so you lose. Again. It's no wonder you can be made to believe a 600 year old goat herder built a boat the size of the Titanic out of nothing but wood and tar. ROFL! And Ken Ham needs 100 million dollars, millions of dollars worth of equipment including huge cranes, 100s of construction workers, roads, a lumber mill and never does this Ken Ham ever think, "Perhaps a 600 year old man could not have built this thing with only Bronze Age tools." And this is why atheism is the fastest growing demographic in the world today. Ken Ham and people like him are the reason that 53,000 American Christians leave Christianity forever every week. Ken Ham demonstrates just how stupid Christianity really is. Again So you have not named one single Christian college that teaches life sciences that does not teach evolution. And again So you have not named one single Christian college that teaches life sciences that does not teach evolution.
What have we learned today? The only thing we've learned Fred is that you are living in denial. The only thing we've learned is that when someone does produce the evidence for you, you just deny it and lie about it. Your comment Fred was that EVERY Christian college teaches evolution as a fact and if they don't, they are not accredited. THAT was your comment in its entirety. Well, I found 3 Christian Universities just within 50 miles of where I live that don't teach evolution as a fact and they are accredited Universities. I took the time to actually talk with someone at each of those Universities to find out the truth; you didn't--you couldn't have. All you can do is lie about it. How do I know you didn't? You couldn't have talked with anyone at those Universities because they would have been closed late last night and early this morning. Anyone reading any of these comments on here can clearly see what an absolute liar you are. You can't handle the evidence even when its smack dab in front of your face. You claim their have been thousands of people from other religions that have had the same experience as Dr. Brown. Really? Just more of your bogus baloney. Give me the name of just ONE person who became a muslim and was immediately delivered from their drug addiction--and give me the proof of it. Also, give me the name of just one person--just one person--who knew Dr. Brown when he was 16 years old and has testified (or can testify) that he is lying about being delivered from his drug addiction over night when he was 16. That's your homework for today Fred.
You don't have a clue who I am Fred. So how can you be so adamant that I am not ordained? That is the epitome of a lack of credibility. When you repeatedly make statements like that you are only showing people you are nothing but a big liar. It's not surprising though, you've proven that truth means absolutely nothing to you. I must admit that it is quite convenient being an atheist. You just make up anything you want as you go along. Nevertheless, I've experienced God FAR too much to ever become an atheist. You are the one who is so big on proving everything before you believe it Fred, and yet you keep on telling all sorts of lies that you haven't (and can't) prove. I've got the legal paperwork from the State that I live in verifying that I am not only ordained, I am licensed. So, how is it that you are so adamant that I'm not
What have we learned today? Well we learned that personal testimonies are not evidence as Fake Rev Randy thinks they are. They are meaningless. We learned that after all day on the phone and on the Internet Randy has still not found one single Christian college or university that teaches life sciences and does not teach evolution. Not one. He tried to foist two Bible colleges on me as legitimate colleges but neither teaches life sciences of course. Why would they? And Rev Randy thinks schools teach creationism as science! Sure. How in the world would creationism ever advance science? What are they gonna do, make a woman from a rib? Get donkeys to talk like they do in the Bible? Oh yeah, they'll stop the sun from going across the sky like Joshua supposedly did so he could kill more innocent women and children. Just like our evil military does today for fun and profit. The only purpose of creation magic or Intelligent Design Magic is to fool our already scientifically ignorant American public. Creationism really only exists to any degree in this backward overly religious nation. There's a reason Ken Ham and Ray Comfort came to the U.S. They knew they could never foment their brand of ignorance in their own countries. And Ken Ham is trying to bilk taxpayers to pay for his stupid ark park which costs over 80 million dollars to promote a lie. THIS is creationism and Christianity, spending 80 million dollars trying to brainwash our youth while 30,000 children starve to death every day. Creationism is not only a lie it's EVIL.
"What they do in mentioning evolution is to point out all the reasons why it can’t possibly be true based on scientific reasons." ROFL! If that is true then you must know what these scientific reasons are so let's see them. Step up to the plate. Go to a creationist website if you have to and post the reasons the facts of evolution are somehow not facts. I have never really met a person who is more of a scientific ignoramus than you are. "So, it turns out that you are the liar after all, and you are the one who needs to do the apologizing." Not so fast fake Rev. Two of those schools are BIBLE COLLEGES and they do not teach life sciences at all. So they do not count. Yikes. If you're not teaching science anyway you're not dealing with evolution. And the third one does teach evolution as I proved by posting the quote from their website. So perhaps you were not lying but you're still WRONG. Cedarville teaches evolution and anybody can see they do on their website. Whether they are accredited depends on what materials they use for study. I'll find out tomorrow. So you still lose because you have not found a legitimate college teaching life sciences that does not teach evolution. Bible colleges do not count. ROFL! How silly can you get?
First of all, I don’t believe you are actually a Jew, Fred…..so prove it." Sure. Send me your Email address and I will take a picture of my father's birth certificate. I have never seen a more Jewish looking document anywhere. This should leave no doubt! I can send you a picture of my degree as well. The last name will be the same as my father's of course. And I still have my birth certificate, unlike our president, with my tiny feet imprinted on it. Wanna see that too? Look the Bible and the Koran are polemics against free inquiry and critical thinking. Calling unbelievers fools is just one of the Bible's many defenses against free inquiry and critical thinking. The basic command in the Bible is YOU SHALL NOT THINK. And you follow that command to the letter. I don't follow I'm a leader and I don't take orders I give them. I'm a real man. You're a pathetic excuse for a man. A sheep ready to be plucked and slaughtered. I can just take a picture with my cell and send it to yours. Whatever.
You claim Fred, that you are smarter than all the ministers, priests, and rabbis in the world because you only believe things that anyone can prove to you. Interesting. Maybe I’ll start living like you. This will be fun. I’m going to start right now. First of all, I don’t believe you are actually a Jew, Fred…..so prove it. Second, I don’t believe you honestly had a Christian education Fred…..so prove it. And third, I don’t believe your name is actually Fred, “Fred”…..so prove it. And while you’re at it “Fred,” prove to me that the name on your birth certificate isn’t actually Fool, because God said in His Word that it is. And so far, it is quite obvious that God has hit the nail on the head on that one.
Okay, FINALLY. Mt. Vernon Nazarene University, and Malone University are Bible colleges and do not teach any life sciences at all, no biology and so they would not teach evolution of course. Why would they? Oy veh. Cedarville teaches science but if the science department is accredited it probably would have said so. I'll find out tomorrow. I doubt that it is. Cedarville does teach evolution but they arrogantly say that "Students will be able to explain evolutionary mechanisms and critique evolutionary theory." Students qualified to critique the most productive, most useful, longest standing, best established scientific explanation we've ever had. Sure they are. We still don't understand all the evolutionary mechanisms but we learn more and more every day. Knowledge always grows and evolves. There is no such thing as static empirical knowledge, the nonsense you believe in. It doesn't matter if one or two Christian colleges don't teach evolution. The overwhelming majority, 99 percent do teach evolution as fact, because it is a fact. Sometimes Christians ask me where I learned about evolution. It wasn't in the public school system where we dissected animals and learned about insects and flowering plants. I learned what I know about evolution in Biology 101 at a private Christian college. You don't even know what a scientific theory actually is. It is a fact that all life is related, all came from the same ancestor. That is common descent and it is a fact. The Theory of Evolution explains the fact of common descent. Creationism denies common descent thereby automatically debunking itself. That's just the way it is and you'll have to live with that as long as you are alive. Nothing you or any other creationist can do to change it. Ever. How does that make you feel. Infuriating ain't it?
You claim Fred, that you are smarter than all the ministers, priests, and rabbis in the world because you only believe things that anyone can prove to you. Interesting. Maybe I’ll start living like you. This will be fun. I’m going to start right now. First of all, I don’t believe you are actually a Jew, Fred…..so prove it. Second, I don’t believe you honestly had a Christian education Fred…..so prove it. And third, I don’t believe your name is actually Fred, “Fred”…..so prove it. And while you’re at it “Fred,” prove to me that the name on your birth certificate isn’t actually Fool, because God said in His Word that it is. And so far, it is quite obvious that God has hit the nail on the head on that one……………………………..And I see you completely ignored the comment regarding what I verified today: I took the time to do some research today and make a bunch of phone calls and it turned out to be just like I’ve been telling you all along. I don’t know where you live Fred, maybe you don’t even live in the United States; maybe that’s your problem. But here in the United States we are fortunate to still be afforded some religious freedoms and liberties. (Thank God our Founding Fathers didn’t believe like YOU!) Here in the United States, religious institutions are still granted certain exemptions and liberties because they are religious institutions. One that I just verified with several universities is that they are NOT required to teach evolution as a fact in order to be accredited like you claim. That’s total nonsense. You must have gotten your information about that from the same place that told you that Jesus never existed. Here are 3 Christian Universities within 50 miles of where I live that are accredited, teach Creationism, and do NOT teach evolution as a scientific fact: Mt. Vernon Nazarene University, Cedarville University, and Malone University. Oh they mention evolution in class alright, but they don’t teach it as a scientific fact. What they do in mentioning evolution is to point out all the reasons why it can’t possibly be true based on scientific reasons. So, it turns out that you are the liar after all, and you are the one who needs to do the apologizing. Turns out YOU are the one who should have done some actual research yourself before regurgitating some other ignorant atheist’s lies.
"Even when the evidence is staring you in the face, you deny it." WHAT EVIDENCE? You don't know what evidence is. In a court of law there's exhibit A, exhibit B and so on. The evidence, like OJ's glove, is something you can see, touch, examine and test. Dr. Brown's story, whether it's true (only he knows if it really is) is a testimony, NOT evidence. A testimony that we have no way of knowing is really true or not because we have no reliable witnesses doesn't count as any kind of evidence and for a jury it probably isn't going to given any weight at all. My guess is that there is some truth to Dr. Brown's story but my experience with Bible believers leads me to the conclusion that it is grossly exaggerated especially if he is claiming an encounter with someone who I happen to KNOW never existed.
Well Fred, I took the time to do some research today and make a bunch of phone calls and it turned out to be just like I’ve been telling you all along. I don’t know where you live Fred, maybe you don’t even live in the United States; maybe that’s your problem. But here in the United States we are fortunate to still be afforded some religious freedoms and liberties. (Thank God our Founding Fathers didn’t believe like YOU!) Here in the United States, religious institutions are still granted certain exemptions and liberties because they are religious institutions. One that I just verified with several universities is that they are NOT required to teach evolution as a fact in order to be accredited like you claim. That’s total nonsense. You must have gotten your information about that from the same place that told you that Jesus never existed. Here are 3 Christian Universities within 50 miles of where I live that are accredited, teach Creationism, and do NOT teach evolution as a scientific fact: Mt. Vernon Nazarene University, Cedarville University, and Malone University. Oh they mention evolution in class alright, but they don’t teach it as a scientific fact. What they do in mentioning evolution is to point out all the reasons why it can’t possibly be true based on scientific reasons. So, it turns out that you are the liar after all, and you are the one who needs to do the apologizing. Turns out YOU are the one who should have done some actual research yourself before regurgitating other ignorant atheist’s lies.
What about all the people who have converted to other religions, reported encounters with God and changed their lives radically. Our prison system has had thousands of inmates go through it who have converted to Islam, came out of prison and never committed another crime and became fine citizens, parents and even foster parents. All of these people credit the religion of Islam and its God for changing their lives. So using your logic Islam is a true religion because it has so radically changed people's lives. People convert to Mormonism, kick drugs and or alcohol and credit their encounter with Jesus for their radical transformation. So you MUST accept these religions as true or you cannot expect me to accept your religion as true. Got it? Yikes! Now I'm sick of seeing the same stupid, worn out arguments from you and having to demonstrate how stupid they really are over and over and over and over again. You have nothing to say because I've shot all of your arguments down several times now. Plus you lied about those colleges and you lied about being an ordained minister. No minister would have been surprised to learn that the Book of Daniel is a Second Century forgery written in two languages by two different authors. That has been taught in Christian seminaries since at least 1909 because I have a book here that proves that. How does it feel to get trapped in lies by an atheist in full view of anybody who reads this? You scoured the Internet looking for a Christian college that doesn't teach evolution and could not find even one. How infuriating is it to learn that Christian colleges agree with me on science and think your ideas are retrograde, harmful, and silly because they come from a prescientific era. You think people die because of sin!! That's because neither you or the biblical authors understood germ theory. Your beliefs come from people with 55 IQs who cut the heads off animals and sprayed the blood around an altar to ward off evil spirits. ROFL!
You just keep proving my point Fred. Even when the evidence is staring you in the face, you deny it. You couldn't care less about the truth. Apart from a supernatural encounter with Jesus, no one is going to go from being a 16 year-old rebellious, heroin and hallucinogenic drug user (who was stealing money from his dad) like Dr. Brown was one moment, to being completely free of all that the next MOMENT (not even having a desire for the drugs anymore) one night after an encounter with Jesus. That's not called kicking the habit. That is a radical transformation on the spot. It wasn't simply a change in beliefs; it was a complete radical change of a lifestyle of addictions. It happened instantly. Even the desire for drugs was gone. Not only that, but he was then convicted by Jesus about the money he had been stealing from his dad and so he went and confessed it to his dad and ask for forgiveness. I've heard other people's testimonies like this. So this wasn't a one-time occurrence in history. No other religion can honestly claim that. None. Of course you don't care about my on-the-spot radical transformation stories. You don't want to know the truth. Even if one of your relatives came back from hell to warn you about it, you'd simply blow it off. You just keep coming back here and commenting you old unbeliever. I'm going to keep talking about Jesus and what He's done for people Fred. No other religion can come close to touching it. None. Next I'm going to start on amazing revivals where hundreds and thousands of people's lives were radically changed overnight after encountering Jesus. No other religion can come close to anything like that. None.
"No one could possibly have the radical transformation in their life in such a short time like Dr. Brown did apart from a supernatural experience." What atheist hasn't seen that worn out argument ad nauseum? That is simply not true. Strongly held beliefs can radically change a person's life. That in no way proves that these beliefs are true or even might be true. We know this because adherents of all religions make the exact same claims. I have known people, most people know someone who adopted a religion other than Christianity and reported the same radical transformation. Converting to Islam supposedly made I guy I know kick heroin and he was on it a lot longer than Dr. Brown was. He reported experiencing God just like you did. Why should I believe you and not this former heroin addict, who as far as I know never lied to me? According to your logic Islam then must be even more true than Christianity huh? And converting to Buddhism made a guy I know stop drinking or at least he swears it did. He did quit. According to your anti-logic Buddhism must be true as well huh? Why not? It radically changes people's lives. I've seen it. Your logic is so very flawed and your arguments are as vacuous as arguments get. You cannot really expect rational people to accept these kinds of claims. You would never accept these kinds of radical transformation stories from adherents of other religions as proof that their God is real and their religion is true. Yet you expect other people to accept the kind of evidence from you that you would never accept from adherents of other religions. Why should I accept these stories from you when that kind of evidence is no good coming from someone else? Do you see what I mean. Or are you so blinded by your own arrogance and ego that you can't understand why we look at you just like you look at members of other religions? You all MAKE THE EXACT SAME CLAIMS. And none of you, NONE of you has a shred of evidence to support ANY of them. Now we've been through this about five times now. I don't care about your radical transformations and your supposed experiences and I've explained why 5 times now. This is only evidence of how deluded you really are and nothing else.
"(1.) I haven't told any lies. I don't have to prove anything to you. When I provide the evidence, you just deny it anyway." That is a lie in itself. You lied about knowing of three Christian colleges that do not teach evolution and anybody reading this is going to KNOW you lied. Do you still want to continue with this dishonest claim? Really? You can't get accredited if you don't teach evolution. So I'm telling you how I know you are not telling the truth and you just keep right on. No ethics at all. Yikes and you wonder why I don't want to be like YOU! Again there's only one kind of biology. Not that evolution deniers like you haven't tried to ignore evolution and try something else. Joseph Stalin was like you in that he believed in absolute authority and that evolution by natural selection was a bourgeois Western philosophy. So he tried something called Lysenkoism which convinced Stalin that they could grow wheat on the frozen tundra and sell it to raise capital for his communist regime. The farmers knew this was never going to work and 20 million people starved to death because of Joseph Stalin's denial of the science of evolution. That is all true and you can look it up. You see evolution by natural selection was DISCOVERED it isn't a human invention like Lysenkoism or Christianity are. Darwin discovered natural selection he didn't just make it up the way people just made up your religion. Had Andrew Wallace shared his discoveries first it would be Wallace's Theory of Evolution and nobody would even know about Darwin. And that is why you just rage against science. How infuriating it must be to see how the findings of science run completely contrary to the teachings in your supposedly infallible holy book. Look I know way too much about science to ever believe what you believe. I cannot just unlearn facts. There is no way I can or ever could believe any of the Christian dogmas or doctrines. I have no use for doctrine because I am not going to be indoctrinated into your death cult. Sorry, no can do. Ever.
(1.) I haven't told any lies. I don't have to prove anything to you. When I provide the evidence, you just deny it anyway. Whoopty doo. (2.) Sorry pal, I AM an ordained minister. (3.) Obviously you don't know anything about me. (Maybe your Googling the wrong Rev. Randy, mr. know-it-all.) You must get your information from the same place that tells you Jesus never existed. (4.) A person with an experience is never at the mercy of a person with an argument...and all you have is a baseless argument. You'll convince Dr. Brown and me Jesus never existed when you convince NASA that the moon landing(s) was/were simply an elaborate hoax by Hollywood like some nuts today are still claiming. (5.) Most atheists don't even agree with you!!! How bad is that?
You bill yourself as Rev Randy. What church do you pastor? That's what I thought. Don't know either of the biblical languages. I happen to know you didn't get ordained by a major denomination then. So the Rev in front of your name is there to deceive people into thinking you are an ordained reverend correct? Tricky. Kind of like those imaginary colleges you invented huh? You claim to have some education but had you ever set foot on a Christian college campus you would know very well what is taught in Christian biology departments. Every one. I shouldn't have to say that I won't believe anything you do say about the subject. Why should I ever believe anything YOU say? Why? I know I'm not going to convince you of anything. You are very worried that I'm right though. We know this when we see the "Well if I'm wrong I've lost nothing" argument. But I know other people have observed and will see this conversation. They could easily look up what we both said about Christian colleges teaching evolution and find out which one of us is telling the truth. This is why I do this. So that people on the fence or people having doubts about their religion can see for themselves how vacuous and ridiculous Christian arguments really are and most importantly how intellectually dishonest defenders of the faith really are. Thanks for helping me prove those things to whoever might be reading this. Rev Randy. Yeah sure.
"That's what makes you an unbeliever." No I'm sick of being lied to by people promoting their religion. I caught you in a lie. You're busted and you still will not tell the truth even now. I don't have to lie to defend anything. I sleep well at night. But you probably do too because it is obvious to me you have no conscience at all. Your belief in Jesus took that away a long time ago. That's enough proof right there that Christianity is one big pile of lies.
Well now, that is interesting. You have it completely backwards Fred. YOU are the one with only an argument. All you present is an argument for lack of evidence. Big deal. All it means is that you haven't searched very hard. What is also interesting is that you stole that line from a Christian who probably told YOU that at some point in time. It was a Christian that was the one that originally came up with that years ago. Actually, the way the quote goes is: "The man with an argument is never at the mercy of the man with experience." Dr. Brown and I are the ones with the experience Fred. You have no experience. A lack of experience is proof of nothing. You have as much chance Fred, of convincing people who have actually experienced Jesus, like Dr. Brown and me, that Jesus never existed as you would have had convincing Neil Armstrong that the moon landing was simply an elaborate hoax pulled off by Hollywood--like some conspiracy theorists still claim today. Do you belong to that organization too? Thousands and thousands of Christians have recounted their experiences with Jesus Christ, but you just reject it all. Big deal. That's what makes you an unbeliever.
"Here's your problem Fred, "Infidels are seldom convinced by argument; for the springs of unbelief are in the heart rather than the head." -- Dr. Philip Schaff, an eminent historian and professor at Yale University." A man with evidence (me) is never at the mercy of a man with only arguments (you). Touche "YOU are the one who first claimed that EVERY Christian college teaches evolution as a fact." "You would have to visit every Christian college to legitimately claim that." No dice. We already know that even Wheaton college teaches evolution, not to mention Baylor, SMU and all the major Christian colleges and universities. Anybody can look this up on the Internet. I named two Christian colleges that do not teach evolution, Liberty and Bob Jones. However they do not have accredited science departments. So you are committing a logical fallacy called Shifting the Burden of Proof. YOU would have to visit every Christian college to legitimately claim that there are Christian schools that DO NOT teach evolution because we have already established that it is being taught in all the Christian universities either one of us knows about. You claim to know about some others. Let's see the names of those colleges. See you're trapped because I happen to know there is no way to get a biology course accredited unless it is evolutionary biology. Nothing else is science. So I knew you were lying right from the start. You'll never name those colleges because you made it all up and we both know it. Shame on you. And to keep on lying about this now after you've been busted just shows me what kind of morals and ethics you really have. "Your problem Fred is that you are ignorant about what true Christianity is." I know exactly what Christianity is. It's the world's longest running protection racket. It preys on the widely held fears of people and only survives because the dead cannot come back and demand a refund. Christianity is a scam. The Church forged and faked the entire New Testament over the course of a few centuries. No one ever heard of the gospels until Irenaeus mentioned them about 180CE. Sid Roth. You would believe something Sid Roth said? Yeah I'll read that stuff. Right after you read some scientific literature on evolution. Why would I read anything you suggest when you would never read any real scientific literature? I'm not afraid to read your stuff, except of being bored to death. But you are afraid to read what real scientists say. Don't tell me what to read. You've had plenty of chances to make your case that Jesus actually existed but instead you think you can frighten me into accepting the lies of your religion the way other people frightened you into submission. That always irks you believers because we are not cowards and you Christians certainly are.
Here's your problem Fred, "Infidels are seldom convinced by argument; for the springs of unbelief are in the heart rather than the head." -- Dr. Philip Schaff, an eminent historian and professor at Yale University. YOU are the one who first claimed that EVERY Christian college teaches evolution as a fact. That's outright laughable. I have repeatedly told you that when you can prove that, I will tell you about 3 Christian colleges that I know don't. THAT was the deal. But you haven't come close to proving that EVERY Christian college teaches evolution as a fact. You would have to visit every Christian college to legitimately claim that. So, get off that dead horse. Not one of my commentaries or study Bibles says anything about the book of Daniel being a forgery. What nonsense! You're only proving that you haven't done any personal research. You just keep regurgitating all the nonsense you've read by other ignorant atheists. You can dismantle the teaching on the Trinity and you claim you don't even believe there is a God? Why would anyone think they could prove the Trinity to you when you don't even believe there is a God? That's a knee slapper! Your problem Fred is that you are ignorant about what true Christianity is. That is quite obvious. The proof of that is that you think Mormon's are Christians because you named their college as a Christian college that teaches evolution as a fact. Mormons don't even believe that Jesus is God. And that is a major foundation of true Christianity. More than likely, that is why your so called "Christian education" left you as an atheist; it wasn't true Christianity. That is tragic. I feel sorry for you. You were definitely done an unjustice. Hey Fred, I have just the book for you to read. It’s right down your alley. It’s a book for a thinking man like yourself. It’s called, “They Thought For Themselves,” by Sid Roth, a Jew. The book is the compilation of the stories of 10 Jews who didn’t just swallow what they were taught, but they thought for themselves—you know, like you do. Another great book for a thinking man like you to read is called, “Betrayed,” by Stan Telchin, also a Jew. Stan tells his story of how he thought for himself as well. He leads the reader through his thought processes to show how he arrived at the point where he did. They are both great books. I’ve read them several times.
"I have spent nearly my whole life studying the Bible." Even your own Christian study Bibles and commentaries admit that The Book of Daniel is a Second Century forgery written in two languages by two different authors, not a Fifth Century prophetic book. If you spent your whole life studying the Bible and couldn't even figure that out then what I said stands. You know absolutely NOTHING about the Bible. NOTHING. There is no way a person with an ego the size of yours would ever admit that he's wasted his entire life studying something that is no more real than Bugs Bunny. But that is exactly what you have done. "I could easily explain the Trinity and the rapture to you from the Bible Fred, but it would be an absolute waste of time because you would just blow it off and say that the Bible was made up and written by men." Yeah let's see the explanation for the dumbest thing humans have ever invented: the trinity. I love torching that argument. Bring it on please. "That's your answer to everything--it's either not true or never existed." When we discussing such an obviously false religion as Christianity of course those would be the only answers to your baseless and absurd claims. "You're problem Fred is that you don't really want to know the truth." That would be you. You're afraid to read the scientific literature on evolution because you're deathly afraid it is correct. "I think the truth is that you just WANT to believe there is no God so you don't have to be accountable for your actions." What atheist hasn't seen that stupid argument? I am very accountable to other people and the society I live in for my actions. I'm a good person because I want to be. I have better and closer friends and my family loves and respects me because I treat them well. Your God doesn't care about actions (works) as you call them. He sends you to hell if you cannot believe a bunch of ridiculous fairy tales for which there exists no evidence whatsoever. The Rotarian who takes an oath of "Service Above Self" but doesn't believe in God is doomed to spend eternity in hell according to your nonsense. But a serial killer who raped. tortured and murdered people can simply accept God and he gets a free pass to the Christian magic happyland. See that stuff just doesn't fly with me. "But like I said, it is understandable that you don't know how to interpret it because you don't believe in Jesus and therefore don't have the Holy Spirit who inspired the Bible and Who is necessary to have in order to interpret the Bible." Do you realize what you are really saying? Only people who have been frightened by other people into the superstition that if they do not believe every word of the Bible is true they will suffer a fate much worse than death, they will suffer eternal damnation. So of course once you're that frightened you'll twist your brain into useless pretzel and go through any mental gymnastics you have to in order to believe things that you would never believe if you weren't so scared in the first place. You've clouded your ability to make a rational decision with fear. This is the most obvious ruse, the most obvious hoax ever pulled. Just think about what I am saying here. Christianity ONLY appeals to the base human emotion of cowardice. You've let the cat right out of the bag here. The only reason you believe the Bible is because you afraid not to. There is no other reason and you know it and your own words and threats prove it. "I've actually met people who've seen Jesus manifest Himself in the flesh. And I believe them." Well you said you knew about Christian colleges that don't teach evolution. So I certainly do not believe ANYTHING you say. You completely discredited yourself and refuse to even apologize. Talk about not wanting to be accountable for your actions!!! Wow you are a HYPOCRITE! Adherents of all religions make that same claim. Yet you would never accept that claim from someone of another faith as proof their deity is real. So why would I accept a claim from you that you would not accept from a person of another faith? I have asked you this before. You Christians all use the most despicable debating tactics. You ignore the objections to your claims and just keep repeating the same nonsense over and over and over and over as if repetition will somehow make it all true. It isn't. "You have spent FAR too much of your time reading all the wrong things in all the wrong places Fred." I take it you mean all the scientific literature on cosmology and evolution I have studied. Yeah the scientists have it all wrong and the backward, superstitious, animal sacrificing primitives who wrote the Old Testament as you Christians call it were right. Sure. "For example, I have a whole bookshelf full of books with testimonies of people who were healed in Jesus' name--healings that were documented by medical doctors..." Oh sure. However God never cures amputees does he? Why is that do you think? Perhaps your God doesn't want to provide any real evidence of a real healing that could actually be proved and documented like that huh? Benny Hinn, Peter Popoff. Oral Roberts. "However, some doctors were just like you and remained atheists in spite of the evidence right in front of their face." Yeah those doctors coming up with naturalistic explanations for things you want to attribute to Christian woo woo. Science always refutes your nonsense which is why you Bible believers have always hated science and you always will. Fortunately the average Christian is about 66 years old right about now. So you'll all be gone pretty soon.
I have spent nearly my whole life studying the Bible. I could easily explain the Trinity and the rapture to you from the Bible Fred, but it would be an absolute waste of time because you would just blow it off and say that the Bible was made up and written by men. Big whoopty doo. That's your answer to everything--it's either not true or never existed. That isn't dismantling anything. You are so smart you are stupid Fred. You're problem Fred is that you don't really want to know the truth. I think the truth is that you just WANT to believe there is no God so you don't have to be accountable for your actions. Choosing to believe that God doesn't exist doesn't cause Him to cease to exist. Actually, I've been very nice to you.......at least compared to what God is going to have to say to you on Judgment Day. Jesus said that to whom much is given, much is required. You should know that since you know the Bible so well--sort of. You are obviously familiar with what the Bible has to say, although you are absolutely ignorant and clueless on how to interpret it. So you are going to be accountable for a whole lot since you do know what the Bible says. But like I said, it is understandable that you don't know how to interpret it because you don't believe in Jesus and therefore don't have the Holy Spirit who inspired the Bible and Who is necessary to have in order to interpret the Bible. You have known Dr. Brown for over 8 years and you are STILL here on his web site arguing that there is no God and that Jesus and the apostles never existed. Wow! That is mind-boggling. You are not normal Fred. What is your problem anyway? You obviously don't have a life. If people want to believe in God and Jesus, what's it to you? If I ever met someone who actually believed that Santa Claus was real, I would not waste years of my life arguing with them about how Santa Claus was not real. I'd let them go their way and get on with my life. If someone wants to believe Santa Claus is real, big deal, let 'em. What's it to me? Do you actually hope someone can prove to your satisfaction that God does exist? Is that why you keep coming back here? I'll be more than happy to keep talking to you about God and Jesus and the Bible. If I told you I actually met Jesus physically after I prayed and asked Him so show Himself in the flesh to me you wouldn't believe it anyway Fred. People like Dr. Brown and me have told you that we've experienced Jesus but you don't believe it. That's why you're called an unbeliever Fred. I've actually met people who've seen Jesus manifest Himself in the flesh. And I believe them. I have no reason not to. I personally don't need to see Jesus in the flesh in order to believe in Him because I have experienced Him. I keep reading testimonies and watching videos of muslims in muslim countries having visions of Jesus and actually seeing Jesus physically. Do you honestly think that a muslim in a muslim country would go around telling other muslims that they saw Jesus if it weren't true? Their lives are at stake when they do that. Many have been killed already for. How do you explain that? You have spent FAR too much of your time reading all the wrong things in all the wrong places Fred. For example, I have a whole bookshelf full of books with testimonies of people who were healed in Jesus' name--healings that were documented by medical doctors--some of whom had not believed in God at the time but then became believers because of what they saw. However, some doctors were just like you and remained atheists in spite of the evidence right in front of their face. That is simply mind-boggling. Keep coming back Fred, I can talk about Jesus all day long. He is awesome!
"The first rule for Biblical interpretation is that you can't just take a verse from here and a verse from there and build a doctrine on it." Really? Well if that's the case where in the Bible is the word rapture or trinity? Christians took a verse from here and a verse from there and built a doctrine of the trinity on it and a doctrine of the rapture on it plus the delusions of an eight year-old girl. Theology at its absolute finest right there! So apparently as long as Christians just take a verse from here and a verse from there and build a doctrine on it it's okay. You know because you people who hate science and any REAL knowledge have some special boogy knowledge that can only be acquired after OTHER PEOPLE have frightened you with the threat of eternal damnation. Those of us who can't believe such an absurdity are not allowed to take a verse from here and a verse from there because other people might just see how ridiculous the Bible really is if you just read it BEFORE people frighten you into believing every word of it OR ELSE!!! How come there are so many different species of animals on Australia that don't live anywhere else on the planet. We don't find any reptile or mammal fossils from the Cambrian period. Why is that? Why does science classify humans as a species of ape? How infuriating was it to learn that even Wheaton college teaches evolution by natural selection? Why won't you tell me the names of the colleges you said did not teach evolution? You made that whole thing up didn't you? If your religion were true you would not have to resort to those kinds of tactics.
You are talking like an absolute fool Fred. You are clueless how to interpret the Bible. You have been educated far beyond your intelligence. The first rule for Biblical interpretation is that you can't just take a verse from here and a verse from there and build a doctrine on it. You remind me of the guy who wanted to know what God's will for his life was so he decided to go to the Bible to find out. He opened the Bible and his eyes immediately fell on the verse that said that Judas hung himself. He closed the Bible and opened it again and his eyes immediately fell on the verse that said, "Go thou and do likewise." I'd wish you luck with your atheism but I don't believe in luck.
In 1 Corinthians 15:3-8, we learn that Jesus proved his resurrection by appearing to people. So it's okay for Jesus to appear to people and this does not take away their free will or harm faith. Matthew 18: 19-20 says “Again, truly I tell you that if two of you on earth agree about anything they ask for, it will be done for them by my Father in heaven. For where two or three gather in my name, there am I with them.” So Jesus is already among us and will do whatever we ask. So get some believers together and pray to Jesus. Try this prayer: Dear Jesus, we know that you are in our midst already. We ask you to physically appear, so that we may know you are resurrected. We have faith that you will answer our prayer as you promise in the Bible. In your name we pray, Amen. Let me know how that goes. When Jesus doesn't show up you have all the proof you need that Jesus is imaginary.
"I already told you that rabbis know Jesus and the apostles existed because they have passed down everything they know from rabbi to rabbi for nearly 2,000 years--which would include Jesus and the apostles." Yes and you already told me that there were three Christian colleges within 50 miles of your house that did not teach evolution. That turned out to be a lie. So I have no reason to believe anything else you say and good reason to believe you're lying AGAIN. And now I will prove it. What is it that rabbis KNOW that they have passed down for 2000 years? If they are passing along information then you must know what this information is. So let's see it. What's that, you can't tell me because you won't cast pearls at swine? Is that it? You have no information at all that could support your ridiculous claim and you know it. Again you're just making stuff up. What evidence do you have that this is true? What are the documents they have passed along? "So now you're claiming to be smarter than all the rabbis in the world?" Every atheist is smarter than any rabbi or preacher. We haven't surrendered our brains to provably false beliefs. A person believing in God has to deny pretty much all of science and anyone who does that is not very smart at all. "Has the devil promised you some great reward for trying to take as many people to hell with you as you can Fred, or is it simply that you don't have a life?" The devil. Oh yeah the devil exists. Sure he does. See that's the problem. Your God has way too many goofy and unbelievable friends and enemies. And I shouldn't have to mention there's just as much evidence for the devil, demons, angels, heaven, hell that there is for God/Jesus/Magic Spirit: NONE. Look at all the absurd beliefs you cling to none of which are supported by even the tiniest shred of evidence. You've given me no reason to believe that Jesus was real and every reason to not want to be like you. You're nasty, insulting, disrespectful, mean spirited, angry and you're as dishonest as anyone I have ever met. And the truth is you really don't believe Jesus is real either or you would know what happens to people who lie and hurl insults at people. Good luck getting into heaven after the way you have wilfully tried to deceive me and after all the insults you've hurled at me. I really do wish Jesus was real because I'd give anything to see the look on your face when Jesus tells you, "I never knew you." You don't believe the Bible any more than I do. You're just hedging your bet in case it might be true. It isn't. POOF
Instead of wasting what few declining years you have left of your life on this earth trying to convince me and others that Jesus and the apostles are fictional characters, you'd be better off wasting the few declining years you have left on this earth trying to convince all the rabbis that there is no God. That would be much more likely. You can't even convince your own people that Jesus and the apostles are fictional characters--let alone that there is no God!!! What a joke! The only thing that you said that is true is that you are in the minority. Actually, you are in the minority of the minority Fred. Every atheist that I ever debated at least believed that Jesus and the apostles existed. Even demons believe there is a God Fred--and they shudder. Your credentials are just like the apostle Paul said of his Fred--they are dung. You are the classic example of someone who has been educated far beyond their intelligence. Knowing Hebrew and Greek doesn't mean diddly squat. The Constitution of the United States is written in English and yet ever since it has been written people in Congress (and elsewhere) are still arguing over what it actually means. It takes far more than knowing Hebrew and Greek to interpret and understand what is written in the Bible Fred. In fact, it is impossible for you to correctly understand and interpret the Bible Fred because the Bible is unlike any other book ever written because it was inspired by the Holy Spirit (God) and therefore takes the Holy Spirit (God) to interpret it. And if you don't believe Jesus even existed, it is impossible for you to have the Holy Spirit. I know that from personal experience. I didn't really begin to understand the Bible until I encountered Jesus and received the Holy Spirit in my life. You're a flat out liar Fred. I HAVE addressed some of your issues--like the proof of Jesus' existence because of all the apostles being willing to be tortured and put to death for believing Jesus rose from the dead, but you just blew it off by saying Jesus and the apostles were fictional characters. That isn't dismantling anything. That's a cheesy cop out. Jewish rabbis don't even believe THAT. And I've already told you that I have experienced Jesus, but you just blew that off. If you know so much about Dr. Brown, you should be familiar with his testimony about how he became a Christian. No one could possibly have the radical transformation in their life in such a short time like Dr. Brown did apart from a supernatural experience. And there are MANY people like Dr. Brown who have shared about the supernatural experience they had that radically changed their life in a very short time when they encountered Jesus. I already told you that rabbis know Jesus and the apostles existed because they have passed down everything they know from rabbi to rabbi for nearly 2,000 years--which would include Jesus and the apostles. You're a Jew and you don't know THAT? DUH!!! So now you're claiming to be smarter than all the rabbis in the world? If that is arrogant I don't know what is. If that isn't stupid, I don't know what is. No, wait, what is stupid is that you are wasting the few declining years you have left on this earth arguing with people about something you don't believe even in. That is the epitome of stupid. Has the devil promised you some great reward for trying to take as many people to hell with you as you can Fred, or is it simply that you don't have a life? If I were in your shoes, there are a WHOLE lot of things I would be out doing other than wasting hours and hours of what I had left of the declining years of my life arguing with people about something I didn't even believe in.
"You're a flat out liar Fred, just like your father the devil." It just doesn't get any more hypocritical than that. You lied about Christian colleges not teaching evolution and you have the unmitigated gall to call ME a liar! No conscience at all. "That's as laughable as you claiming you know more about the Bible than I do because I know NOTHING about the Bible." I had four years of Ancient and Koine Greek. I can read the New Testament in its original language. I know Dr. Brown very well and I was the only guest on for the entire hour on The Line of Fire on September 17, 2008. Dr. Brown and I discussed several subjects which he picked to discuss before the show. We shared a laugh on the show at the fact that he had a secular education and remained a Christian and I had a Christian education, which I am proud of, and I remained an atheist. We did a really good show I think, more of a discussion than a debate although Dr. Brown said afterward he wished I had been more aggressive. So I know what I am talking about and I've been around for a very long time. I have a lot of respect for Dr. Brown even though I disagree with his views I still listen when I can. I have NEVER believed that Jesus was a real person, even as a small child and I have never been given a good reason that I should. You certainly haven't. So this is not something I just came up with the other night after drinking all night. I don't drink. Now you have insinuated that I'm stupid and hurled all kinds of insults at me. Calm down. You have not addressed ANY of my objections and you have not answered ANY of my questions and you have not given me any reason at all to believe that Jesus Christ and the disciples actually existed. Why don't you just do what I have asked now several times and make your best argument for a historical Jesus? By the way I realize I am in a minority, but that minority is nowhere as small as you would like to believe and it is growing. The God That Wasn't There and Zeitgeist, even though it is flawed got people thinking and questioning what is truly the Greatest Story Ever SOLD. All we're saying is we ain't buyin it. "They know that Jesus existed." Based on WHAT EXACTLY? See that's the problem. People believe because they haven't bothered to peel away the ludicrous arguments and find out there really is no man behind the curtain. So you need to say WHY people believe Jesus existed. When you see the reasons you realize they do not stand up to critical examination. So again, step up to the plate and stop with the personal attacks. Only people losing debates resort to that tactic. That would be you.
You're a flat out liar Fred, just like your father the devil. You're an atheist and you're trying to lecture me on what orthodox rabbis believe and don't believe? That's as laughable as you claiming you know more about the Bible than I do because I know NOTHING about the Bible. I've debated a number of Jews over the past number of years (as well as atheists) regarding the issue of whether Jesus was God and rose from the dead or not. NONE of them, I said NONE of them Fred, have ever come close to even suggesting that Jesus and the apostles were simply fictional characters and never existed. Why would they waste their time arguing about whether Jesus was God and rose from the dead when all they would have needed to do is simply claim Jesus and the apostles never existed like you do? Why, because they weren't that stupid. In fact, YOU are the first person (and not just Jew) that I have ever debated who claimed that Jesus and the apostles were all fictional characters. You should watch some of the videos where Dr. Brown is debating rabbis. The rabbis never argue that Jesus never existed. Their arguments center on Jesus not being God and not rising from the dead. They know that Jesus existed.
"It's been passed down from rabbi to rabbi for the past nearly 2,000 years." I'm a Jew and so I know that is one big fat Christian lie. Rabbis ignore the New Testament except to mock it privately. There's Utube video by Rabbi Tovia Singer in which he explains why Jews don't usual state that Jesus never existed. Christians get pretty angry when you tell them they are worshiping and praising a figure no more real than Bugs Bunny. Don't they? Especially when the Christian realizes he cannot provide any evidence to the contrary, huh? If you had any evidence at all the Jesus and the disciples were real you would have presented it by now. But you haven't because there isn't any. Again your personal experiences of Jesus, even if you really think you had one, which I highly doubt, are meaningless. You would never accept a personal experience as evidence from an adherent of another religion as proof that their God is real. But you're arrogant enough to expect other people to accept your experience as some kind of proof. Why would I accept evidence from you that you would never accept from a person of another faith? You have not thought through these ridiculous arguments you make at all which is why it is so easy to destroy them. Again you refuse to post the names of the Christian colleges that do not teach evolution. Because you can't. Much like your Jesus and the disciples they don't exist. You made it up and you KNOW it. But you don't care because religion has removed your conscience, destroyed any real sense of ethics and morality you may have once had. "If I'm wrong, I have NOTHING to lose. If you are wrong, you have EVERYTHING to lose Fred. You better spend some time thinking about that because you are clearly on the wrong side of the odds." It never fails. When the Bible believer is in full retreat, his lies exposed, his bogus claims refuted, he resorts to threats of eternal damnation. And THIS is the ONLY reason you believe Randy. OTHER PEOPLE have frightened you with the false dogmas and doctrines of Christianity. YOU have so much to lose and have lost so much already. Your conscience and ability to tell truth from error, right from wrong and even your ability to admit you were wrong about something. You're spending your life in intellectual servitude to false beliefs. How much money and time you've wasted praising and worshiping someone no more real than Daffy Duck, only you know. I have nothing to lose because your imaginary torture chamber is a human invention. Who told you about hell? I rest my case.
NONE of the apostles ever existed? Really? Are you just playing the devil's advocate for kicks and giggles Fred, or you actually working for the devil? Actually, the devil isn't that stupid. Simply saying the Jesus and the apostles never existed isn't dismantling anything at all. What a cheesy cop out. Even orthodox Jewish rabbis--who despise Christianity with a passion (every bit as much as you--or more)--acknowledge that Jesus and the apostles existed. As much as some of them hate Christianity and Christians, why don't they simply deny that Jesus and the apostles ever existed like you do? Why don't they just claim they are all fictional characters like you do? That would be a very easy way to discredit Christianity and be done with it. So, why don't they do that? It's simply because they aren't THAT stupid. And they don't want to look stupid. They know the truth Fred. It's been passed down from rabbi to rabbi for the past nearly 2,000 years. They know that Jesus and the apostles existed. There's no doubt in their minds about that. What they work at is trying to prove that Jesus wasn't God and that He didn't rise from the dead. Case closed. I would gladly give you the names of the three Christian colleges within 50 miles that don't teach evolution as a fact Fred, however, Jesus told His followers that they should not cast their pearls before swine because they will just trample them in the dirt. You've done that time and again on here already so there is no reason at all to think you won't do it again. For example, I've told you that I've personally experienced Jesus; I've had Him answer my prayers; I've heard His voice--and it's been confirmed. You just blow it off and say you don't believe it and rub it in the dirt. Wow, that's impressive. If I give you the names of the Christian colleges, you'll simply claim (without any proof whatsoever) that you know that that isn't true. Whoopty doo. You're only fooling yourself. There is just one little problem with this life Fred--we only get one shot at it. Just one shot. If we get it wrong, there are no do-overs. None. If I'm wrong, I have NOTHING to lose. If you are wrong, you have EVERYTHING to lose Fred. You better spend some time thinking about that because you are clearly on the wrong side of the odds.
"You are so stubborn and hard-hearted that you won't even listen to what other ATHEISTS have said." I can say with confidence that Jesus and the apostles are fictional characters precisely because I have read all the arguments. So you post the best ones right here and I will demonstrate why they do not stand up to scrutiny. I think you're afraid to see your best arguments dismantled by an atheist. In fact I know you are. So step up to the plate. "it has never been known that a person was willing to die for what he or she KNEW to be a lie. There have been people who were willing to die for what they believed was the truth but actually wasn't, but no one has been willing to be tortured and die for what they KNOW is a lie." Right. Any Christians who died as martyrs surely believed their religion was true. But that doesn't make it true. Yikes. Talk about FLAWED LOGIC! Oy. But Candida Moss showed in her book "Myths of Persecution" that stories about Christian martyrdom are largely if not all fictional accounts invented by the mother of all persecutors, the Christian Church. Also you can't use the disciples as witnesses or martyrs as evidence for the existence of Jesus Christ until you prove they actually existed. What you are doing is like trying to prove the existence of Superman by citing the testimonies of Lois Lane, Perry White and Jimmy Olson. They're ALL PART OF THE SAME STORY. Outside of that story, and this is VERY important, there are no witnesses, there are no written accounts, there are no mentions of Jesus Christ by any historians who were alive in the first part of the First Century anywhere at any time. The gospels are corrupt and the early Church was corrupt and why anyone would believe anything the early Church claimed is beyond me. "All TEN were tortured and put to death knowing the truth." Oh yeah? Where does it say that in the Bible? Do you have any accounts of these deaths from legitimate, unbiased historians? Of course not. The church just made them up. Just more lies from the world's largest fabrication factory, the Christian religion. Again the disciples are fictional. Like the 12 tribes of Israel they represent signs of the zodiac, not real people. Now I never said I was in every biology class in the world. I got my information from the Christian academic community itself. Anyone can look up this information and you should have done so before you stuck your foot in your mouth, don't you think? So I didn't make any claims about myself or where I live but you did. Now for the 5th time post the names of the Christians colleges within 50 miles of your house that teach science but do not teach evolution. Your credibility is on the line here, not mine. If you cannot bring yourself to tell the truth about this then you really should ask yourself why that is. Really. Game 7. Good game so far.
You remind me of the story that Jesus told of the rich man and Lazarus, Fred. I'm sure you know the story because you claim to know the Bible far better than me. The rich man and Lazarus both died. In hell, the rich man asked Abraham to send Lazarus to his father's house to warn his five brothers to repent so that they wouldn't end up in hell like him. Abraham told him that his brothers had Moses and the Prophets to listen to, i.e., the Bible. The rich man told Abraham that if someone from the dead would go warn his brothers, they would listen. And Abraham told him that if they wouldn't listen to Moses and the Prophets, i.e., the Bible, they will not be convinced even if someone rose from the dead. I could give you all kinds of evidence for God and Jesus and the Bible and you still wouldn't believe it Fred. You are so stubborn and hard-hearted that you won't even listen to what other ATHEISTS have said. How bad is that? So it is not surprising that you don't listen to anything I have to say. Nevertheless, I'll give you just one good example of proof that Jesus not only existed, but that He rose from the dead. In the history of psychology (and that includes secular psychology) it has never been known that a person was willing to die for what he or she KNEW to be a lie. There have been people who were willing to die for what they believed was the truth but actually wasn't, but no one has been willing to be tortured and die for what they KNOW is a lie. (There have been multitudes of people who recanted--even though they KNEW the truth--just so they wouldn't be tortured anymore, so it is not surprising than no one would ever be willing to be tortured and put to death for what they KNEW was a lie.) God allowed not one, but TEN of the original apostles of Jesus to be tortured and die horrible deaths for the benefit of people just like you Fred. If in the history of psychology it has never been known that a single person was willing to die for what he or she KNEW was a lie, then the fact that TEN people would be willing to be tortured and die horrible deaths is MORE than enough evidence to prove Jesus not only existed, but that He rose from the dead. Those ten apostles KNEW the truth. Jesus either rose from the dead, or He didn't. It's black and white. Christianity is all based on Jesus rising from the dead. If it hasn't been known in the history of psychology that a single person was willing to die for what he or she KNEW was a lie, then the odds of TEN people being willing to die for what they KNEW was a lie is incalculable. What does a person have to gain by being tortured and put to death for something they KNOW to be a lie? Absolutely NOTHING. And certainly TEN people wouldn't. If they had actually conspired to spread a lie that Jesus rose from the dead, certainly at least one of the ten would have recanted and told the truth. But none did. Not a single one. All TEN were tortured and put to death knowing the truth. And God allowed it for the benefit of people just like you Fred.
"Your comments don't come anywhere close to proving that EVERY Christian college teaches evolution as a fact Fred." Liberty and Bob Jones do not teach evolution. Name one other accredited Christian college or university that teaches science and does not teach evolution. Just one. I'l wait. Forever. ROFL! The ball is in your court. Prove me wrong. "He did exist as a person. I've provided links for you to read what some of those atheists have said." That is a logical fallacy known as an Appeal to Authority." I could just as easily tell you to go to Jesusneverexisted.com and see all the proof you'll ever need that Jesus Christ never even existed and that the Church forged and faked the entire New Testament over a peried of a few centuries. Are you going to do that? No. You're afraid that information could raise serious doubts in your mind about your religion. So you will shut your mind to any information that disagrees with what you've already been preconditioned by OTHER PEOPLE to believe. I have already read much more apologetic hocus pocus than you have. Lee Strobel was never an atheist. He has admitted several times on The Bible Answer Man show that when he was an "atheist" he really believed in God but he just didn't want to have to face the notion of a holy God and stop his sinful ways. That is NOT an atheist by any stretch. So Strobel lied. Imagine that. So I invite you to make a case that Jesus was a real person. Don't tell me how many people believe, they really, really believe! If 2 billion people believe a stupid thing it is still a stupid thing. So I invite you to make the case that Jesus Christ really existed. Post a two paragraph biography of Jesus using only sources from outside the Bible and written during the time Jesus supposedly lived or no more than a decade or two after he syupposedly died. If there's so much evidence for the existence of Jesus Christ this should be no problem. I'm an atheist I don't believe the Bible. Convince me with your extra-biblical evidence that Jesus was a real person. Step up to the plate.
Your comments don't come anywhere close to proving that EVERY Christian college teaches evolution as a fact Fred. How laughable. To show just how ignorant you are about Christianity, Mormonism is NOT Christian--not even close. They don't even believe Jesus is God!!! That is at the heart of true Christianity. And you have the audacity to claim I know NOTHING about the Bible! Next you'll try to tell me that because you found a couple of so called "Christian" colleges that teach homosexuality is an acceptable alternative lifestyle, that EVERY Christian college teaches that. You aren't the first atheist I've ever debated Fred, but you are hands down the most arrogant and ignorant one. At least others have enough integrity and knowledge to admit that, while they don't believe Jesus was God or rose from the dead, He did exist as a person. I've provided links for you to read what some of those atheists have said about Jesus being a historical person on their web sites, but your mind is so much like concrete--thoroughly mixed up and permanently set--that you won't even read what other ATHEISTS have to say on the subject. You can't get any more close-minded than that Fred. Those atheists recoil at atheists like you for making them all look like a bunch of fools for denying historical facts. Like I have said, you have zero credibility Fred. Try explaining how it could be that former atheists such as Lee Strobel or Josh McDowell (just to name two) who SET OUT with the BIAS of PROVING that God, Jesus, the Bible and Christianity were all a sham ended up becoming Christians THEMSELVES. That is totally illogical.
Here's what you said, "I'm still waiting for you to prove you've sat in every biology class in every Christian college to substantiate your off-the-wall claim that EVERY Christian college teaches evolution as fact. Until you can actually prove that every Christian college teaches evolution as fact, I consider everything else you have to say just as pitifully stupid and ignorant." First of all you did not supply the names of ANY Christian colleges around where you live as you claimed. So you are the one who is not being truthful and you know it. What Christian universities teach in their biology departments is something anyone can just look up on the Internet. Read it and weep: "Eugenie Scott of the National Center for Science Education recently noted, old-earth geology and evolution are taught matter-of-factly at every major religious-affiliated university in the U.S. This includes universities, such as Baylor University (Baptist), Brigham Young University (LDS), Southern Methodist University (Methodist) and the University of Notre Dame (Catholic), that are flagship universities of their respective Christian denominations, as well as Yeshiva University, the premier Jewish university in the U.S. Furthermore, the research and instructional programs in these fields are generally first-rate. For example, the Baylor College of Medicine was recently ranked #25 in biological sciences program by U.S. News and World Report. The biological sciences graduate program at Notre Dame was recently rated #13 in the U.S. by one rating program and #4 by another. Brigham Young University has a strong program in bio-informatics, and is also well-known for its extensive dinosaur fossil collection. So what about smaller universities affiliated with religious movements, such as the numerous universities affiliated with evangelical organizations? Here too, conventional geology and evolution are typically taught, without apology, by well-trained, fully credentialed scientists who were educated at leading universities, and who themselves are accomplished researchers in many cases. Typical of relatively conservative colleges is Wheaton College, which is affiliated with and funded by mostly evangelical Christian groups. While some at the college grapple with evolution and how it can be reconciled with scripture and with the larger notion of Christian theology, the departments of geology, biology, and related fields generally teach fairly conventional scientific theories fairly matter-of-factly, although there remains some tension between scientific faculty and their sponsoring organizations." Now even I did not know that Wheaton college taught evolution as fact. I didn't realize or perhaps I forgot they even taught science. It doesn't get any more conservative than Wheaton. Now you can look this up for yourself. Humiliating ain't it? It must be infuriating to find out even your own Christians schools reject your beliefs about the Bible. I think you owe me an apology my friend.
Rev. Randy K. posted a comment · Jun 18, 2016
I don't even read much of your comments after the first sentence anymore Fred because up until now it's all a bunch of typical made up atheist crap anyway. Why should I bother to address a bunch of made up crap? I'm still waiting for you to prove you've sat in every biology class in every Christian college to substantiate your off-the-wall claim that EVERY Christian college teaches evolution as fact. Until you can actually prove that every Christian college teaches evolution as fact, I consider everything else you have to say just as pitifully stupid and ignorant. With comments like that you've proven that you have no credibility, i.e., you are not believable. Another pitifully stupid and ignorant comment of yours was that I know NOTHING about the Bible. How ridiculous. You need to take the time to look up the words you use before using them Fred because you are obviously using words you don't know the meaning of. I'm talking about words like "EVERY" and "NOTHING." The only reason I bother to even respond to your inane comments Fred is for the benefit of anyone else who may be reading them to point out just how irrational, illogical and stupid comments like your two aforementioned ones are. You'd never win a debate anywhere with comments like that.
By the way Randy, don't think I didn't notice that you did not have the courage to even try too launch a single objection to anything I said in my first post on this thread. My position is that no such person as Jesus Christ ever existed. And neither did Paul or any apostles. How would Paul get papers in Palestine that would allow him to arrest anyone anywhere especially in Damascus, which was in another country? The Jewish religious leaders never had any power to arrest anyone nor did they have a prison to put them in. You could not be arrested in Rome's very polytheistic empire for religious beliefs of any kind. They had more religious freedom than we do. That whole story is such an obvious bunch of nonsense only people who have surrendered their minds to religion could believe it. A story could not be anymore obviously untrue. Infuriating ain't it. People with the nerve to question what you've been taught is above questioning. And having to watch your supposedly infallible holy book shot full of holes by those of us who are intelligent enough to not fear this false idol you worship.
It's kind of funny that people who can't sit still in church for hour or so because it's so mind numbingly boring for them, want to spend all eternity in a place that is supposed to be pretty much the same way. Truly a celestial North Korea where people can endlessly praise the Dear Leader. I watch a lot of baseball and sports in general. What are you supposed to do for 2 minutes while they're selling stuff you don't need? What do you do when a commercial comes on? Watch it? It only takes a few minutes to knock over apologetic arguments because I've seen them all so many times before. All you Bible believers cut and paste from the same creationist websites or at least repeat the same worn out and long debunked arguments. I challenge you to post your 2 or 3 best arguments, the ones that best support you beliefs and I will demonstrate that they are logically flawed and do not stand up to scrutiny. Now you people are arrogant enough to call us "lost" which is the best example of the pot calling the kettle black ever. Really, it is. But we see you as lost, drowning and wasting your lives in intellectual servitude to beliefs that were disproved a long time ago. Perhaps you are the kind of person that tries to feel love and compassion for their fellow humans because they are commanded to by their religion. Most Christians are just that way. However most atheists are concerned for their fellow human beings and we talk to people like you because we want to help you. No one is commanding us to care about you Christians. We do it because it comes naturally. Just like we humans did. Do you know what we really are? We are star matter. That's it. But we are also an example of the universe becoming aware of itself! Maybe even for the first time although I highly doubt it. My story is so much more exciting and exhilarating than your boring story and the best part about my story is that it's true. I don't think we should have this particular discussion on this thread. Off the subject. We can take it private if you so desire. Or we can end it. Your call.
Rev. Randy K. posted a comment · Jun 18, 2016
Look at the bright side Fred, whether I am right or whether you are right, you aren't going to have to spend eternity with Christians. That should make you happy. However, if I believed like you do Fred, I certainly wouldn't be wasting the few declining years of my life that I had left on this earth arguing about something that I didn't even believe in. For someone who is always talking about logic, that is totally illogical. If I were in your shoes and believed this life is all that there is, I'd be out living it up with the few declining years I had left.
Fred posted a comment · Jun 17, 2016
A typical smoke and mirrors argument. Who cares how many manuscripts the Church cranked out in an effort to filch, authority, wealth and power to itself? Christians are the only people who can't figure out that the Early Church forged and faked the entire New Testament. The gospels are not written by eyewitnesses and very few Bible scholar would ever attempt to claim they were. It's obvious that the authors of Matthew, Luke and John plagiarized and embellished Mark's Gospel to tell their stories. And Mark does not contain a resurrection appearance at least in its earliest forms. It was added later which is proof the Church doctored and rewrote these gospels many times. Also Mark tells us about events that happened when no one was around to see them. The author of Mark recounts word for word conversations held by people when no one was around to hear them. Mark's author also tells us what a crowd was thinking and even that they were thinking wrong. How could he possibly know these things? He didn't, he made them up. And the other writers copied and embellished these stories. Also apologists will claim that the resurrection of Jesus is the best attested event in history. Yet they don't even know what year this supposed event even took place and offer anything from 30 - 37CE as possible years. That is VERY telling. This supposed event is never mentioned by any secular historians anywhere at any time. The name Jesus Christ does not appear in the historical record at all. So you have no eyewitnesses to any events described in the gospels and no idea when any of them even might have taken place. All I can say is when Christian apologists make these grandiose claims and offer little to no real evidence but only arguments to back them up, you might want to start doing your own research. You might just be surprised at what you don't find.